Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Russian term or phrase:
смыслообразующий
English translation:
meaning-formative
Added to glossary by
Mikhail Kriviniouk
Mar 2, 2003 18:20
21 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Russian term
С нами всё ясно / Clearly with us
Native in: English 
, Russian
Works in: Russian to English, English to Russian
смыслообразующий
Russian to English
Other
Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
Sociology
Рассмотрим в связи с этим данные, характеризующие сходство и различия в восприятии тех понятий, которые являются смыслообразующими для национального самосознания.
Andrey Zdravomyslov's article in The Russian Public Opinion Monitor, no1 jan-feb 2001, russian version
Andrey Zdravomyslov's article in The Russian Public Opinion Monitor, no1 jan-feb 2001, russian version
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +1 | notions that are meaning-formative for the social self-consciousness |
Montefiore
|
| 3 +7 | defining |
Jack Doughty
|
| 4 +4 | which lay the intellectual/philosophical/ideological foundations for... |
William Stein
|
| 4 +2 | sense-forming |
Kirill Semenov
|
| 4 +1 | Not for grading - в поддержку ответа Кирилла Семенова |
Vera Fluhr (X)
|
| 4 | semantically meaninful |
Montefiore
|
| 4 | Which are a driving force/ became a driving force... |
Oleg Pashuk (X)
|
| 3 +1 | An offering only! |
Jack slep
|
| 3 | corner-stone |
Dimman
|
| 3 | Conceptual |
Vladimir Binevitch (X)
|
Proposed translations
+1
9 hrs
Montefiore
United States
United States
Native in Russian
Works in field
United States
Experienced, knowledgeable, prompt
Native in: Russian 
Works in: English to Russian, Ukrainian to Russian, Russian, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
notions that are meaning-formative for the social self-consciousness
I used self-consciousness to honor the source.
Here is another version for your review and evaluation. Maybe it will fit.
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Note added at 2003-03-03 15:22:36 (GMT)
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I withdraw my earlier statement about being absolutely sure that my answer was correct. Who can be absolutely sure? And, besides, there is a million ways to say the same thing.
Please accept my apologies for a brief outburst of unwarranted arrogance:)
Here is another version for your review and evaluation. Maybe it will fit.
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Note added at 2003-03-03 15:22:36 (GMT)
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I withdraw my earlier statement about being absolutely sure that my answer was correct. Who can be absolutely sure? And, besides, there is a million ways to say the same thing.
Please accept my apologies for a brief outburst of unwarranted arrogance:)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
zmejka
: beautiful :))))) only it probably should be 'national' instead of 'social'?..
9 hrs
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national, of course:) thank you, Zmejka
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you. Most fitting I think. Thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion. ProZ RuleZ!"
+7
6 mins
Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Translator since 1953
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, German to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
75
defining
This is not a translation of смыслообразующий, but it seems to me the best word to make sense of the sentence.
Closer translations are:
thought-provoking
or
food for thought.
But it seems to me that this is about what forms or defines the national self-consciousness.
Closer translations are:
thought-provoking
or
food for thought.
But it seems to me that this is about what forms or defines the national self-consciousness.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Maria Rosich Andreu
9 mins
|
| agree |
Natalie
39 mins
|
| agree |
Dmitry Arch
1 hr
|
| agree |
JoeYeckley (X)
: "those perceptions that define national self-consciousness" or something on those lines
3 hrs
|
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Yes. Thank you.
|
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| agree |
margari
7 hrs
|
| agree |
Alexandra Tussing
: possible
11 hrs
|
| agree |
zmejka
: i think this is the best version
15 hrs
|
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Thank you.
|
6 mins
Montefiore
United States
United States
Native in Russian
Works in field
United States
Experienced, knowledgeable, prompt
Native in: Russian
Works in: English to Russian, Ukrainian to Russian, Russian, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
semantically meaninful
..perception of those notions that are semantically meanigful for the national consciousness/self-awareness
Quote:
Explanation: Anyone who conceives referential meaning as a way of participating in the world will have no problem in understanding the natural (and not only the cultural) world as being also semantically meaningful. Example: A scientist watching someone pick up a stone and skimming it across a pond can conceive and explain it all from a physical, physiological and biomechanical point of view. But this incident can also be conceived and explained from a semantic standpoint. Then there are semantic units such as intentions, perceptions, emotions, decisions, actions etc., and there is also the stone. And this stone is a semantic entity, namely an object of action with particular attributes for action (e.g., it is flat, smooth and level, and therefore good for skimming). The stone is meaningful for the action and as such (and only as such) it is part of the semantic context of the person who wants to skim it - and the stone nevertheless remains in the place where it is relevant to the action, namely "outside" (according to the 6th Assertion).
Not only "cultural" or "intellectual" wealth (e.g., written texts) are "external" and semantically meaningful; this is as well valid for natural (or terrestrial) conditions such as stones, for example. They acquire their semantic content through the referential contexts in which they are included - as a rule, references to actions or dealings with people. "Everything is a sign, a luxuriant sprouting of signs; trees, clouds, faces, coffee-grinders ... are enameled with layers of interpretation which twist and knead the semantic dough" (Guiraud, 1975, p. 42). "The result is a world without absence of meaning" (Bunzl, 1994, p. 268) - just as the 2nd Assertion states.
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Note added at 2003-03-02 18:27:32 (GMT)
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Sorry about the typos - meaningful, of course
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Note added at 2003-03-02 18:31:14 (GMT)
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The reference above is from an article on social constructivism:
http://www.psychologie.uni-oldenburg.de/mub/constructivism.h...
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Note added at 2003-03-02 18:32:41 (GMT)
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Also, it\'s probably better to use \"self-awareness,\" rather than \"self-consciousness,\" or simply - social consciousness
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Note added at 2003-03-03 03:33:17 (GMT)
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Я уверена, что мой ответ правилен в данном случае. и простите за такую уверенность (не самоуверенность):) Дело в том, что речь идёт о смысловом \"узнавании\" и \"признании\" понятий, которые уже существуют, но могут обычно ничего не значить - а тут они приобрели СМЫСЛ - это с большой буквы, потому речь идёт о смысле для сознания, пусть даже общественного. Это означает, что значение этих понятий воспринимается, а не просто прослушивается и запоминается.
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Note added at 2003-03-03 03:38:38 (GMT)
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Я уверена, что мой ответ правилен в данном случае. и простите за такую уверенность (не самоуверенность):) Дело в том, что речь идёт о смысловом \"узнавании\" и \"признании\" понятий, которые уже существуют, но могут обычно ничего не значить - а тут они приобрели СМЫСЛ - это с большой буквы, потому речь идёт о смысле для сознания, пусть даже общественного. Это означает, что значение этих понятий воспринимается, а не просто прослушивается и запоминается.
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Note added at 2003-03-03 03:43:33 (GMT)
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I am sorry about the repetition:) the darn system that I\'ll never be able to figure out.
Quote:
Explanation: Anyone who conceives referential meaning as a way of participating in the world will have no problem in understanding the natural (and not only the cultural) world as being also semantically meaningful. Example: A scientist watching someone pick up a stone and skimming it across a pond can conceive and explain it all from a physical, physiological and biomechanical point of view. But this incident can also be conceived and explained from a semantic standpoint. Then there are semantic units such as intentions, perceptions, emotions, decisions, actions etc., and there is also the stone. And this stone is a semantic entity, namely an object of action with particular attributes for action (e.g., it is flat, smooth and level, and therefore good for skimming). The stone is meaningful for the action and as such (and only as such) it is part of the semantic context of the person who wants to skim it - and the stone nevertheless remains in the place where it is relevant to the action, namely "outside" (according to the 6th Assertion).
Not only "cultural" or "intellectual" wealth (e.g., written texts) are "external" and semantically meaningful; this is as well valid for natural (or terrestrial) conditions such as stones, for example. They acquire their semantic content through the referential contexts in which they are included - as a rule, references to actions or dealings with people. "Everything is a sign, a luxuriant sprouting of signs; trees, clouds, faces, coffee-grinders ... are enameled with layers of interpretation which twist and knead the semantic dough" (Guiraud, 1975, p. 42). "The result is a world without absence of meaning" (Bunzl, 1994, p. 268) - just as the 2nd Assertion states.
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Note added at 2003-03-02 18:27:32 (GMT)
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Sorry about the typos - meaningful, of course
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-03-02 18:31:14 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The reference above is from an article on social constructivism:
http://www.psychologie.uni-oldenburg.de/mub/constructivism.h...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-03-02 18:32:41 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Also, it\'s probably better to use \"self-awareness,\" rather than \"self-consciousness,\" or simply - social consciousness
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-03-03 03:33:17 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Я уверена, что мой ответ правилен в данном случае. и простите за такую уверенность (не самоуверенность):) Дело в том, что речь идёт о смысловом \"узнавании\" и \"признании\" понятий, которые уже существуют, но могут обычно ничего не значить - а тут они приобрели СМЫСЛ - это с большой буквы, потому речь идёт о смысле для сознания, пусть даже общественного. Это означает, что значение этих понятий воспринимается, а не просто прослушивается и запоминается.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-03-03 03:38:38 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Я уверена, что мой ответ правилен в данном случае. и простите за такую уверенность (не самоуверенность):) Дело в том, что речь идёт о смысловом \"узнавании\" и \"признании\" понятий, которые уже существуют, но могут обычно ничего не значить - а тут они приобрели СМЫСЛ - это с большой буквы, потому речь идёт о смысле для сознания, пусть даже общественного. Это означает, что значение этих понятий воспринимается, а не просто прослушивается и запоминается.
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Note added at 2003-03-03 03:43:33 (GMT)
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I am sorry about the repetition:) the darn system that I\'ll never be able to figure out.
+4
7 mins
William Stein
Costa Rica
Costa Rica
Native in English
Costa Rica
Translations that read like originals
Native in: English (Variants: US, UK)
Works in: French to English, German to English, Spanish to English, and 3 more.
which lay the intellectual/philosophical/ideological foundations for...
I know a lot of people dislike the connotations of those adjectives, so I offered three possibilities.
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Note added at 2003-03-02 22:39:19 (GMT)
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Sorry, it should be:
which LAID the....
See, English is impossible for us, too!
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Note added at 2003-03-02 22:39:19 (GMT)
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Sorry, it should be:
which LAID the....
See, English is impossible for us, too!
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Dmitry Arch
1 hr
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Thanks, Dmitri!
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| agree |
Elena Ivaniushina
: I think it conveys the meaning well, and sounds better than literal translation
3 hrs
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Thanks, Alya.
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| agree |
JoeYeckley (X)
3 hrs
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Thanks, bro'
|
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| neutral |
Montefiore
: yes, I dislike those connotations:) nothing personal
9 hrs
|
| agree |
Alexandra Tussing
11 hrs
|
+2
21 mins
Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Ukraine
Native in Russian
Works in field
Ukraine
60+ books translated and published
Native in: Russian
Works in: English to Russian, Russian
Related KudoZ points
:
66
sense-forming
или meaning-generative, meaning forming.
See ref. (sociology)
...City as a sense-forming culture center...
Кроме того, в Гуголе встречается meaning-generative.
See ref. (sociology)
...City as a sense-forming culture center...
Кроме того, в Гуголе встречается meaning-generative.
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Vera Fluhr (X)
18 mins
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спасибо :)
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| neutral |
Oleg Pashuk (X)
: literal translation is not the way to go:)
19 mins
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никогда?
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| agree |
Montefiore
: meaning-generating may work, or meaning-forming
8 hrs
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спасибо :)
|
23 mins
Which are a driving force/ became a driving force...
---
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Note added at 2003-03-02 19:34:56 (GMT)
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... of national self-consciousness.
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Note added at 2003-03-02 19:35:29 (GMT)
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Maybe - THE driving force?
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Note added at 2003-03-02 19:34:56 (GMT)
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... of national self-consciousness.
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Note added at 2003-03-02 19:35:29 (GMT)
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Maybe - THE driving force?
+1
29 mins
An offering only!
This is only to show that the term has been used and translated, albeit literally, and is neither supported or rejected by this sender!!
www.infomag.ru:8082/dbase/J091E/961203-007.txt
... IA.Kudryavtzev, GB.Morozova, AS.Potnin, AD.Korzyakova, OF.Semenova PSYCHOLOGYCAL
ANALYSIS OF THE SENSE-FORMING FACTORS OF DELINQUENT BEHAVIOR IN TEENAGERS The ...
10k - Cached - Similar pages
www.infomag.ru:8082/dbase/J091E/961203-002.txt
... 69 PSYCHOLOGY OF DEVIANT BEHAVIOR Kudryavtzev IA, Morozova GB, Potnin AS, Korzyakova
AD, Semenova OF Psychologycal anlysis of the sense-forming factors of ...
www.infomag.ru:8082/dbase/J091E/961203-007.txt
... IA.Kudryavtzev, GB.Morozova, AS.Potnin, AD.Korzyakova, OF.Semenova PSYCHOLOGYCAL
ANALYSIS OF THE SENSE-FORMING FACTORS OF DELINQUENT BEHAVIOR IN TEENAGERS The ...
10k - Cached - Similar pages
www.infomag.ru:8082/dbase/J091E/961203-002.txt
... 69 PSYCHOLOGY OF DEVIANT BEHAVIOR Kudryavtzev IA, Morozova GB, Potnin AS, Korzyakova
AD, Semenova OF Psychologycal anlysis of the sense-forming factors of ...
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Oleg Pashuk (X)
: and it was a bad translation:)
3 mins
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Amen!
|
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| agree |
Montefiore
: he-he-he - I only agree that it was a bad translation
8 hrs
|
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When in doubt, leave it out - nonbody will know the difference!
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1 hr
corner-stone
Такое чисто "совковое" выражение лучше перевести (имхо) как-то совсем по-другому. "Краеугольный камень" - один из вариантов, мне кажется, выбрать надо что-то типа этого. МОжет, кто получше придумает
+1
2 hrs
Not for grading - в поддержку ответа Кирилла Семенова
Я думаю, что ответ Кирилла верный.
Я посмотрела, "образование смысла" - это термин, а в английском ему соответствует "formation of sense" или "formation of meaning".
По мои понятиям, все эти сюжеты очень заумные, но что делать - они существуют.
Привожу для 2 примера, чтобы дать представление:
Short bibliography of Losev and TOC`s of books -
... 3. From noeme to idea; name as a communication tool. 4. Ideas as a field of formation of sense in word. ... 3. Layers of self-consciousness, or word. XI. ...
http://vt.fermentas.lt/philo/books.html
Процесс обретения смысла, т.е. алгоритм смыслообразования, выстраивается с помощью математических понятий. Целостное осмысление мира, всеобщий характер философского знания, обусловленный предельной абстрактностью философских понятий, сближает философию с математикой, понятия которой, лишенные каких-либо качеств могут отражать любые сущности.
http://www.philos-educ.ru/Library/Culture_2002/Chupahin.htm
Я посмотрела, "образование смысла" - это термин, а в английском ему соответствует "formation of sense" или "formation of meaning".
По мои понятиям, все эти сюжеты очень заумные, но что делать - они существуют.
Привожу для 2 примера, чтобы дать представление:
Short bibliography of Losev and TOC`s of books -
... 3. From noeme to idea; name as a communication tool. 4. Ideas as a field of formation of sense in word. ... 3. Layers of self-consciousness, or word. XI. ...
http://vt.fermentas.lt/philo/books.html
Процесс обретения смысла, т.е. алгоритм смыслообразования, выстраивается с помощью математических понятий. Целостное осмысление мира, всеобщий характер философского знания, обусловленный предельной абстрактностью философских понятий, сближает философию с математикой, понятия которой, лишенные каких-либо качеств могут отражать любые сущности.
http://www.philos-educ.ru/Library/Culture_2002/Chupahin.htm
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Montefiore
: Вера, простите, что опять с Вами не согласна, но какое отношение имеет к этому Лосев??? Он - авторитет в иной области
6 hrs
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ну я думаю,что в смыслообразовании-то он разбирался. Но дело в том, что это Лосев, а том как выглядит термин.
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| agree |
Kirill Semenov
: спасибо, Вера. Именно в философском контексте и нужно искать, мне кажется. А Лосев был и остается во многом авторитет.
8 hrs
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Конечно. Спасибо, Кирилл
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11 hrs
Conceptual
As an option
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
zmejka
: нене. при обратном переводе вы бы перевели conceptual как "смыслообразующий"?
6 hrs
|
Discussion
oh I don't know I'm just a little native speaker"