| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Off topic: David Graeber Bulls**P Jobs - did you read it? Would you consider you have a bulls*** job? Thread poster: Anna Sarah Krämer
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I cannot help but consider a majority of my work to be of no real use to humankind. We do not really need to have more piles of reports about improving shareholder value or the customer experience in 32 different languages while the planet is basically on fire. Most of the things I translate are ultimately geared towards making people and organizations buy things they don't need, and lead directly and indirectly to more wasted resources and more wasted energy.
Lately I have found it... See more I cannot help but consider a majority of my work to be of no real use to humankind. We do not really need to have more piles of reports about improving shareholder value or the customer experience in 32 different languages while the planet is basically on fire. Most of the things I translate are ultimately geared towards making people and organizations buy things they don't need, and lead directly and indirectly to more wasted resources and more wasted energy.
Lately I have found it increasingly difficult to keep doing what I do. I would like to hear other perspectives. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Emanuele Vacca 
Italy
Local time: 17:31
Member (2020)
English to Italian
| That's a wider issue | Jul 15, 2022 |
Despite our romanticized self-perception, what we as translators offer is ultimately a professional service serving companies' goal to sell their products and services outside of the market where they happen to be incorporated. I think we should be aware of this aspect before we even decide to be specialized translators as opposed, for example, to those translating in artistic fields, i.e. literary translators. At the same time, I feel that you are just against capitalism (which is perfectly fin... See more Despite our romanticized self-perception, what we as translators offer is ultimately a professional service serving companies' goal to sell their products and services outside of the market where they happen to be incorporated. I think we should be aware of this aspect before we even decide to be specialized translators as opposed, for example, to those translating in artistic fields, i.e. literary translators. At the same time, I feel that you are just against capitalism (which is perfectly fine) and let's be honest, 99% of jobs serve the purposes that you described. What I am trying to say is that even if you changed your job, you would probably feel the same. If you want to serve purposes that you may feel "higher", you might switch to literary translation or translation for NGOs. One of my potential plans for the future, for example, is switching to translating in fields that I am more personally interested in, such as philosophy (a subject in which I happen to hold a bachelor's degree), history, politics etc., although I do like finance.
[Edited at 2022-07-15 14:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Free to decline | Jul 15, 2022 |
We are all free to decline work we consider unethical or don't want to do for whatever reason, but if we do accept to do something, we can't begin to respond to our clients as if we were politicians or activists. If that's what we want to do, then it would be better to go into politics or activism, well knowing that our income is unlikely to be the same – and even an activist needs to pay for housing, food, heating and all the rest. But that would still not make wars, forest fires (mostly star... See more We are all free to decline work we consider unethical or don't want to do for whatever reason, but if we do accept to do something, we can't begin to respond to our clients as if we were politicians or activists. If that's what we want to do, then it would be better to go into politics or activism, well knowing that our income is unlikely to be the same – and even an activist needs to pay for housing, food, heating and all the rest. But that would still not make wars, forest fires (mostly started on purpose or by carelessness), poverty, starvation and other disasters end. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 18:31
Member
English to Turkish
If I were putting stock in an anarchist activist's opinions, I probably wouldn't be translating "piles of reports about improving shareholder value or the customer experience", but would go and form/join a Fight Club instead.
No offense intended.
[Edited at 2022-07-15 14:16 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 11:31
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Talking bull**it | Jul 15, 2022 |
I read part of Bull**it Jobs several months ago after reading a review of Graeber's more recent The Dawn of Everything. Sadly, he died shortly after writing this later book.
There seem to be many who find themselves in such jobs (which at times are well paid) and some of these persons don't have great options for securing more emotionally fulfilling employment at equal or greater pay).
In other words, they are stuck with their "bull**it jobs."
... See more I read part of Bull**it Jobs several months ago after reading a review of Graeber's more recent The Dawn of Everything. Sadly, he died shortly after writing this later book.
There seem to be many who find themselves in such jobs (which at times are well paid) and some of these persons don't have great options for securing more emotionally fulfilling employment at equal or greater pay).
In other words, they are stuck with their "bull**it jobs."
The unfortunate thing about this interesting topic is that it is unlikely to elicit a lot of frank responses - especially from those actually stuck in bull**it jobs who use their real names to identify themselves on this site....
So I applaud Anna's courage here.
As to her particular observation about the seeming pointlessness of many of the translations that she does:
I am in sympathy. I felt the same way about many of the translations I did during the 9 years I worked as a (more or less) full-time freelancer.
Still, I sometimes drew satisfaction from the challenge involved in doing the work (i.e., the content, the bad writing, the tight deadlines, the discipline required to work long hours at a stretch, sometimes several days running). And, in the end, the money I made was decent.
So I was able to find sources of satisfaction in my work - despite the strong element of bull**it involved in it.
But I also think it healthy to be honest about the bull**it....
[Edited at 2022-07-15 21:42 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Some jobs (in general, I mean) can be boring or otherwise unsatisfactory. I think most can agree on that.
But other people or companies are not responsible for ensuring that *I* have an interesting or fulfilling job. That is my own responsibility. I ended up being bored with IT after doing it for 20 years and no longer found any job opportunities in the field I was specialised in, so instead of specialising in another (boring) IT field, I left the sector completely and tried a few d... See more Some jobs (in general, I mean) can be boring or otherwise unsatisfactory. I think most can agree on that.
But other people or companies are not responsible for ensuring that *I* have an interesting or fulfilling job. That is my own responsibility. I ended up being bored with IT after doing it for 20 years and no longer found any job opportunities in the field I was specialised in, so instead of specialising in another (boring) IT field, I left the sector completely and tried a few different things for a number of years until settling in translation. It wasn't easy, but as I said, other people don't owe me a living. If an agency wants to pay me an unreasonable fee, accept unreasonable conditions or work in ways I don't like, I decline.
Each one has to find the way of working that suits them. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:31
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| The really funny thing about David Graeber.... | Jul 15, 2022 |
.. is that his job was completely unnecessary.
| | | | Anna Sarah Krämer
Germany
Local time: 17:31
Member (2011)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Free to decline = free to starve | Jul 15, 2022 |
boring or otherwise unsatisfactory
Bulls*** doesn't equal unsatisfactory - I actually like my job, and many of the challenges it brings, much like Robert Forstag reports as well. It's incredibly fun, it pays well, I like the challenges ...
But it's not really honest work. I would estimate that more than 80% of translation work in my language pair is some sort of marketing copy - so I don't really have the freedom of choosing honest projects, there are too few. Of the advertised products, maybe 10% serve any purpose different from feeding the bloated administrations of organizations with an ever increasing array of new products and services that nobody needed yesterday and everybody has to buy now! to avoid running their business in the ground (fear-based advertising containing the words "fast-paced" is one of my pet peeves).
There was a thread about the forest fires in Europe a few days ago, and Thomas (you are in PT as well, correct?) mentioned most fires are started intentionally, but I'm not really convinced. I have what I feel is direct consequences of global warming threatening my life and that of my friends and neighbors every summer, and it only has been getting worse since the last decade. And as much as I might think my part in it is small and harmless, I still have a part in it, by perpetuating a system of lies that causes the destruction of the planet. By translating texts that contain words like "fast-paced" to induce businesses and people to speed up and buy more, ever faster, ever more rushed. I perpetuate a kind of world I do not want to live in.
Ultimately I will probably try and reduce my translation work further as much as possible. I'm aware the bs problem doesn't happen to all translators in equal degree. Those of us who are lucky (or more politically aware in the beginnings of their careers) can probably make an honest living as a translator. But the opportunities for that are rare.
... his job was completely unnecessary
As an anthropology professor he tried to learn and teach about human history and culture. I fail to see how the self-awareness of a species is unnecessary - even if you might disagree with his personal flavor of research.
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| I do to some extent | Jul 15, 2022 |
I very much doubt that some of what I translate ever gets read by anybody at all. It just ticks a box.
Some of my other translations have helped bring about improvements in human rights performance.
But the colour of the money is the same.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:31
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Since we already went off topic about 5 posts earlier..... | Jul 15, 2022 |
Anna Sarah Fazendeiro wrote:
As an anthropology professor he tried to learn and teach about human history and culture.
I have to confess I know almost nothing about Graeber and have not read him, which is quite embarrassing as his wife (now widow) lives downstairs from me. She's rich and Russian. I spend a lot of time thinking about that.
What was Graeber's position on the climate emergency?
| | | | Joseph Tein
United States
Local time: 08:31
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I enjoy the work; don't love the clients | Jul 15, 2022 |
I've been doing medical translation for over 15 years. I enjoy reading and translating the histories and diagnostic reports and procedures; I learn a lot about medicine and am always fascinated by the things I learn about the human body. Medical journal articles are usually fascinating. It's great that I can be immersed in these topics and get paid for it. On the other hand: most of the translation jobs I get are sponsored by our Big Pharma friends who are trying to market yet another drug tha... See more I've been doing medical translation for over 15 years. I enjoy reading and translating the histories and diagnostic reports and procedures; I learn a lot about medicine and am always fascinated by the things I learn about the human body. Medical journal articles are usually fascinating. It's great that I can be immersed in these topics and get paid for it. On the other hand: most of the translation jobs I get are sponsored by our Big Pharma friends who are trying to market yet another drug that will make them a few more millions or billions in profits. Big Pharma is notorious for sponsoring studies that confirm the efficacy and safety of their latest product, and they are not above faking or hiding results to get their latest moneymaker approved by regulatory authorities ... they're not out to help humans live healthy lives because that would be bad for business. So I enjoy my projects -- like Anna says, I enjoy the challenges -- and am grateful for the experience, while not loving the companies that send the work.
Then there are individual clients (real humans) who need records translated because they're seeking treatment for their medical needs in some English-speaking location. These are always a high priority and I feel I'm making a real contribution when I work on these; there is real satisfaction there.
For those who feel that their work isn't contributing anything of real value, I would suggest taking the time to research and connect with clients who are doing something worthwhile. There are certainly many, many institutions/agencies out there who are making valuable humanitarian contributions in the world.
Slightly off-topic: there's an excellent book about Big Pharma tactics by Dr. Marcia Angell: The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us. Also The Danger Within Us by Jeanne Lenzer, about the medical device industry. These authors also have YouTube talks you can listen to.
Stay healthy
[Edited at 2022-07-15 17:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2022-07-15 17:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Anna Sarah Fazendeiro wrote:
Most of the things I translate are ultimately geared towards making people and organizations buy things they don't need, and lead directly and indirectly to more wasted resources and more wasted energy.
I have often had the thought that, if we could take the huge amount of talent and energy that is currently devoted to advertising and marketing, and redirect it towards activities that would actually benefit human society in some way, what a wonderful world we could create.
Answering the question, I don't feel my work is pointless because most of it is in the medical area. It doesn't generate any earth-shattering benefit (and I share Joseph's reservations about big pharma), but it's oriented in a positive direction.
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My projects are quite diverse, and a lot of things like gaming/betting content or marketing stuff are useless bs so I can relate to that. But there are also others like hospital records for people unfortunate enough to end up in hospitals abroad so they need those for medical follow-up or insurance purposes, so it kind of balances in the end. One should focus on the positive side of the job, otherwise just being unhappy about it won't make the world better anyway.
| | | | Jan Truper
Germany
Local time: 17:31
Member (2016)
English to German
Anna Sarah Fazendeiro wrote:
I cannot help but consider a majority of my work to be of no real use to humankind. We do not really need to have more piles of reports about improving shareholder value or the customer experience in 32 different languages while the planet is basically on fire. Most of the things I translate are ultimately geared towards making people and organizations buy things they don't need, and lead directly and indirectly to more wasted resources and more wasted energy.
Lately I have found it increasingly difficult to keep doing what I do. I would like to hear other perspective.
I think these are viable considerations, as I fear the plethora of zombies all over the world (including the translator’s community) that wittingly or naively ignore the impact of their own actions will ultimately lead to humanity’s downfall.
However, “real use to humankind” is setting the bar too high, in my opinion.
We live in a capitalist world, and I monetize my translation abilities in order to generate income, suitable for a living standard that I see fit.
As long as there are no redeeming systems in place (a decent unconditional basic income, for example), ***the best I can do is to be mindful that translation projects I work on do not inflict significant damage***. To this end, I refuse projects from fossil fuel companies, airlines, weapons manufacturers, religious nutcases and alike.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:31
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Utilitarianism---- | Jul 17, 2022 |
...the assumption that everything we do must be "useful". I see no reason why everything should have an observable, quantifiable purpose.
In any case, translation is not useless.
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